Introduction from JetBoy: For those who are a little late getting to this story, there’s a bit of a twist to its history, which you’ll notice if you take the time to trawl though the numerous comments below.
In the original story that Keiko wrote, then I edited and proofed, the daughter of the narrator is an infant girl who is included in the sexual activity. After it was posted, some of our readers objected very strongly to this aspect of the plot… and one keen-eyed reader pointed out that it was also in violation of Juicy Secrets policy. After consulting Keiko, she and I agreed that the best course of action was to take the story down and rewrite it so that the daughter, while still extremely young, was at least old enough to consent to participate in the lovemaking. (Consent being the operative word here.)
Then, as some of you may already have anticipated, other readers objected to the site’s censorship of the story. So it goes. The surest path to insanity is trying to please everyone.
Anyhow, here is our reworked version of “The Corruption of Amy.” We hope that you’ll give it a fair shake (and perhaps shake a few other things, while you’re at it.) As for the original version, I’ve already suggested to Keiko that she posts it at Lesbian Lolita, whose rules are a bit more casual than ours.
Thanks for reading… and feel free to add to the dialogue in the comments.
***
By BabyKeiko
I should know better. I’m thirty-one. I have a child, a husband. I was raised to know the difference between right and wrong. I even go to church — granted, only on special occasions, but I still understand sin and redemption, how they work. I’ve got a moral compass.
But I can’t help what happens when the craving takes me. Can’t help my depravity. My sick desire. It’s so strong, so all-consuming that it makes me lose sight of my better self, turns me into a wanton whore, with no thought but to satisfy this hunger that hisses and snarls inside me.
So that’s why I’m here on the couch with my body lewdly exposed, fully naked. My three-year-old daughter Nina is nestled in my lap, nursing from my breasts, only wearing tiny white underpants.
My pussy is inflamed. Wet. Wanting.
I’m seated in front of Amy. Fourteen-year-old Amy. My depravity muse. My partner in crime.
“Take your clothes off,” I tell Amy. And she does.
It thrills me that she still blushes as she undresses for me. These emotions that run through Amy when we play our twisted games are so powerful, so all consuming… is it any wonder that the blood always rushes to her pale cheeks? My underage lover is flushed with need. With shyness. Perhaps even a touch of shame; I wouldn’t be surprised.
Amy gradually exposes her ripening body, one piece of clothing at a time. Her youthful breasts are still growing, defying gravity. Puffy nipples. She’s a newly blossoming teen, beginning to assume a womanly shape. She will have a generous bust, once she achieves full maturity. Her pubes are as red as the short hair on her head. Lovely as she is, Amy is even lovelier out of her clothes.
With each visit to me she’s discovering more of her own needs. Her unspeakable desires. Her willing submission. Which I exploit. I encourage. And I get off on it, on corrupting this young girl. It’s so wrong, yet more intense than any sexual thrill I’ve ever known.
I make Amy do what arouses me to the point where I am beyond all caring. When all that matters is the searing heat of my lust. And hers. Because what makes this so intoxicating is that I know her triggers. I know them because they’re the same as mine. But I direct Amy to express her desire and act on it so that I’ll be able to tell myself I’m not like that.
Except that I am like that. Perhaps even more “like that” than I want to admit.
And for Amy, being manipulated by an adult, a mother, allows her to rationalize what she does away, to tell herself that she can’t help what happens. It wasn’t her. She’s only a young girl, doing what she’s been told. Adults know better. They know what is right and wrong. So if a grownup tells her to do something, who is she to refuse to obey?
We’re both winners in our mutual corruption. We both can rationalize our depravity, explain it away.
“Sit in front of me,” I tell Amy. I open my legs so she has room to scoot in between them.
She obeys, her face glowing with the satisfaction of being told what to do. Knowing and hoping I’ll let her satisfy her secret hunger. It’s all she needs from me. To help her explore, and more importantly, coax her to enter willingly, joyously, into our shared depravity.
“Does this make you happy?” I ask.
“Yes,” she whispers, locking eyes with me. I see her spark… her need… her submission.
Amy directs her eyes to my breasts. Actually, to one particular breast — the one my little girl is suckling, mouth attached to my nipple. Of course, I no longer have milk to give, but little Nina still loves to nurse… and few things in life please me more than making my daughter happy.
Amy’s gaze shifts to the other breast, blue veined and drooping ever so slightly. The one with no little girl attached to it. My exposed nipple is stiff and straining outward as if seeking another loving mouth.
“Does this excite you?” I ask her.
“Yes,” she concedes. She is unable to deny the truth to me. Or to herself.
“Does it make your pussy wet?” I ask.
When I ask Amy these questions, she can only be honest, and so once more she says, “Yes.” The pink in her cheeks turns a shade darker red from having voiced that yes, openly admitting that watching a naked woman nurse a nearly-naked child arouses her desire. And Amy’s excitement is only intensified by her own nudity, the thrill she gets from displaying her young, still developing body to me.
“Show me,” I tell her. “Prove to me that you really are wet.”
Her eyes flicker back up to mine. She slips her right hand between her knees, which she spreads, still seated between my wide open legs. I see her pussy. I see the red curls, so sparse, on her pubic bone and around those surprisingly prominent labia. She spreads her butterfly open for me.
And there it is: glistening pussy cream, the true evidence of her forbidden lust. A big white pearl of it is emerging from the opening of her fourteen-year-old cunt.
The sight of Amy’s sex opened by her own fingers… the puffed-up nipples on those sweet pubescent breasts… her cheeks flushed with the excitement of following my orders, as well as the shame she feels for loving what we do so much, along with the knowledge that we’ll be doing those very things quite soon… all those things I see, taken in combination with my daughter’s insistent tug-tug-tug nursing on my breast, is nearly enough to make me come.
Almost enough — but I manage to suppress it for now. Sweet agony. Standing close to the beckoning fire, but not yet allowing myself to dance into the flames. I love that feeling.
As I watch Amy sitting there, her wet, shining labia spread open for me, I know she wants to go further. I see her labored breath. I feel her anxiety and the need to leave her comfort zone, to venture into a new, dangerous place.
And I will help this precious girl of fourteen get what she wants. Because if I tell her to, she can’t say no.
“Tell my daughter hello,” I say. “Aren’t you glad to see her?”
“Um, h-hi, Nina,” Amy says. “How are you?” Her words are utterly mundane, but they seem to crackle with the deep-banked desire she feels for my child.
Nina breaks contact with my swollen nipple, turning to give Amy a sunny smile. “H’lo, Amy,” she says, reaching out to the older girl.
With a tiny sob, Amy takes my three-year-old into her arms, hugging Nina to her bare chest. They share a loving embrace.
Amy is so caught up in the moment that I half expect her to cry. “I… I love you, Nina,” she adds.
My child touches the teen’s face with her little hand. “I love you, too,” she coos. “An’ so does Mommy!”
Amy glances up at me, reading the passion that smolders in my eyes. It’s true: this shy but amazingly intense girl of fourteen is my lover, and my feelings for her sometimes threaten to consume me whole.
And yet, what we share can hardly be called romance. Not for us the gift of flowers, or the murmur of sweet nothings. No, our love is that of sinners, and it is firmly rooted in the forbidden need that Amy and I share.
Now the time has come to fully explore that hunger, to reach for the cup and drain it to the dregs.
I smile down at my daughter. “Shall we play our game now, sweetheart?”
She twists around to peer up at me, “Yes, Mommy!”
“Ah, but today, we’re going to make the game a little different,” I tell her. “You see, Amy wants to play with us. She’s taken off all of her clothes, so she can be part of the game. Would you like that?”
Nina all but bounces in my lap, her eyes dancing with glee. “Yay!” She wheels around to face her older friend. “Yes! Play, Amy!”
“Okay,” my teenage lover whispers. She tries to sound relaxed, but I notice that her hands are trembling. She glances at me, then looks away, her cheeks a bright pink.
It’s time, my girl. We’re going to make your dream happen.
Still cradling Nina, I shift her about so that she’s facing Amy, her little legs parted slightly. I notice Amy stealing a peek between them, and feel a renewed surge of lust. “Take her underpants off,” I say, nodding down at my daughter.
Amy hesitantly reaches out, the fingers that just opened her pussy now brushing the front of Nina’s panties. She is overcome with mingled excitement, sexual heat and fear, possibly on the verge of tears. It’s a lot to deal with for a girl of fourteen.
She carefully takes hold of the waistband, giving it an experimental tug. I lift Nina slightly, and Amy pulls the white cotton underwear down the child’s legs and over her feet. Now we are all naked.
Amy sits back, resting on her heels. Her eyes roam over my daughter’s bare body. Nina’s smooth slit is now openly displayed for Amy. The hunger in her eyes… my God, I can almost extend my hand and touch it.
I tickle my daughter’s chin. “Sweetheart? Do you like letting Amy see you this way? With no clothes on?”
“Mmm-hmm!” Nina responds, giving her head an eager nod.
“What about you?” I ask, looking up at a dazed Amy. Do you like looking at my little girl when she’s naked?”
“Yes,” she replies in a barely heard whisper.
“Does she… “ I pause for dramatic effect, “…does she excite you when she’s naked? Get you hot?”
This answer is even softer. “Yes.”
I make her say it. I make fourteen-year-old Amy admit out loud that she is sexually aroused by the sight of my naked three-year-old. I feel my pussy drip and throb, the anticipation of what is to come almost enough to bring me so close, so close to release…
I moan, then take a deep, calming breath. Not yet, damn it. Don’t you come.
“Do you like her little belly button?” I ask, gently caressing Nina’s impossibly soft tummy.
Amy is no longer capable of words. She sits, staring, mesmerized, her cheeks flushed crimson. Redheads do have a tendency of blushing deeply. Amy is flushed all the way from her face to her chest, even between those annoyingly perky breasts.
“Do you like seeing her nipples?” I ask Amy, looking at her face. Her eyes are glued to my hand, gently caressing my daughter’s chest, teasing those tiny buds to stiffness. Nina sighs blissfully, Amy swallows hard.
“Do you?” I ask again.
“Yes… yes, I do.” Amy’s agreement comes suddenly, as if she’s just realized that if I didn’t get an answer then and there, this magical intimacy will immediately cease. And fourteen-year-old Amy, my beautiful young lover, doesn’t want it to stop.
I’ve helped her to understand the truth: not only is she into women and girls… but she’s into little girls, the kind of love that could destroy her life if the secret ever got out. I wonder sometimes if the sheer danger of it all is just another part of the pleasure Amy feels at moments like these.
“What do you like seeing most?” I ask her. I need Amy to admit it, to tell me what she wants.
Amy looks up at me, eyes full of panicked realization, because she knows where I’m leading her.
“You can tell me, Amy,” I say, “It’s not like I don’t know.” Her eyes now follow my caressing hand again. It glides up and down my child’s thin legs.
“Her p-pussy,” whispers Amy, her voice filled with mingled need and shame. Though by this time, the need seems to be winning out.
“That’s right,” I reply, “You like my little girl’s pussy… don’t you, Amy?”
“Yes,” she says, admitting defeat. Somehow, though, it’s also a victory.
“Tell her. Tell Nina that. She likes to hear how pretty she is… everywhere. Even there.”
Amy’s cheeks pinken again, but she does manage to say, “I… I love your pussy, Nina. It’s every b-bit as pretty as the rest of you.”
Nina is pleased, of course. My little one adores being complimented. “Say ‘thank you, Amy’,” I tell her.
“Thank you, Amy,” my child lisps, beaming with delight.
“Open her legs,” I tell my teenage lover.
This is where my corruption and Amy’s wanting leads us. Where I will find the sweet release that I ache for.
Amy slowly reaches out to touch Nina’s legs… then hesitates. A line is being crossed, and she knows it.
We’ve come too far to back down, though. I place my free hand on Amy’s, helping her to open my little girl’s thighs until her smooth, pink vulva is fully exposed.
I don’t mind helping Amy do this. Because I want it every bit as much as she does.
“Isn’t she absolutely perfect?” I ask Amy. I’m holding her hand in place, on that incredibly soft thigh.
“Yes.” Her voice is tense with lust.
“And I know what you want to do to her, Amy… We both know, don’t we?”
A labored, whispered: “Yes…”
“Go on… lick Nina’s pussy. That’s what you need, isn’t it?” I’m not really asking, just stating a fact.
She looks up at me again, her eyes brimming with tears — of shame? Of joy? I can’t say.
Turning away, Amy slowly bends down until her face is nestled between Nina’s thighs. And then this girl of fourteen starts to lick, making love to my daughter’s treasure.
My little one is slumping against me, a dreamy cast to her eyes, one I know well from the many times I have pleased her with my mouth. I offer her a breast, and she eagerly latches on, sucking with a vigor that feels positively divine. Reaching down to my aching vulva, I plunge two fingers inside and roll them around, massaging the vaginal walls, then seek out and find the clit with my thumb, working it like a switch.
I feel the storm rising swiftly inside me, the pressure mounting, then boiling over as a massive orgasm swallows me whole, liberating my body from hours’ worth of built up sexual tension…
God, I needed that. Take some of the pressure off. Still, my lust remains undiminished. In fact, now I’m more ready than ever to complete my corruption of Amy.
I run my fingers through her long, luxurious hair while she goes down on my child, alternating between tender kisses, swipes of the tongue and sucking at her slit. I’ve felt Amy’s mouth between my own legs more than a few times, and know how good she is at giving pleasure.
I encourage her – not that she needs it. “That’s it, child… lick my little girl’s cunt, make her happy — make her your lover.”
Sliding my index finger between Amy’s lips, her tongue and Nina’s moist slit, I begin to masturbate my daughter while my teenage partner in crime continues to lick. I feel my vagina swell and contract, fueled by the purest undistilled lust.
“Touch yourself,” I tell Amy. I see and feel her hand as it slips between those slender legs, finding her pussy. She’s dripping with nectar, enough for it to trickle down her inner thighs. A moan escapes her lips, somewhat muffled by my child’s vulva.
My perverted dream is coming true. I’ve made an underage girl play with herself, kneeling between my legs while she goes down on my little girl. Nina is beside herself with delight, her little eyes dancing. It’s almost enough to send me over the edge again. Not yet, though… not yet.
I lift Amy’s face from my daughter’s pretty pink slit, a finger under her chin. Her face is flushed from what must be a crazy-quilt mixture of emotions. I understand completely; what we’re doing is a lot for a girl of fourteen to process.
“Keep playing with yourself, Amy,” I tell her… and even though I can’t see for myself, I know that she is obeying me.
“Yes,” she gasps, her voice sounding as tortured from the need for release as her body surely is.
“Would you like to feed Nina now?” I ask Amy. Our eyes are locked. She gives me a quick nod.
“You may, then… but keep playing with yourself — that’ll make it even better.”
I peek down at my little one, still sucking at Mommy’s lust-engorged nipple. “Sweetie,” I tell her, “Amy would like to nurse you now. She wants to feel that pretty mouth of yours on her nipple. Okay?”
Tilting her head, Nina looks up at me, a bit dazed from the lovely feelings we’ve been giving her. “‘Kay,” she murmurs, then smiles at her new lover.
Amy rises to her knees, and I steer her upper body toward mine. My eyes are drawn to those blossoming breasts — so utterly perfect, even when she bends toward the naked little girl in my lap. I had a body like hers in my teenage days, before I became pregnant with Nina.
Her breasts are now inches from my daughter’s face. “Let me help you,” I say, and guide her soft breast towards Nina’s mouth.
My three-year-old loves to nurse. For her, a teat is no longer a source of food, but it’s still a lovely way to bond with Mommy. So it’s no surprise to see her take to Amy’s nipple, just as if it belonged to me.
“Ohhh… oh God,” I hear Amy moan.
“I know, I know…” I whisper, my lips grazing her ear. “Doesn’t it feel good?”
Believe me, I understand exactly how you feel, Amy… because I’ve experienced it so many times myself, often with a hand tucked between my thighs, fingers buried deep inside, probing myself. There’s nothing like it, that soft, warm mouth tug, tug, tugging at your breast.
Amy moans again. I nibble her neck, then whisper, “Talk to me… tell me everything. Isn’t it lovely, my child’s sweet little mouth?”
“Oooh wow, y-yes,” she stutters, practically glowing with the love and desire she feels. “I love it – I love her.”
“Are you still playing with yourself?”
Amy doesn’t answer, but she doesn’t need to. I can see her arm moving, hear the wet sound of fingers exploring her creamy hole. I know how she gets herself off — not from penetration, but from rubbing the length of her vaginal cleft from clit to opening, sometimes dipping inside very slightly. Her movements are erratic as the heat builds inside… going slowly, then faster, then slowly again. She is spreading thick, warm wetness all around her pussy to help her fingers glide up and down, building up friction in all the right spots.
Amy’s lips are parted in ecstasy, and I find myself wanting to taste them. “Kiss me,” I say to my young lover.
She tilts her head back, her face meets mine and I crush my lips into hers, licking into her mouth. Amy’s tongue immediately joins in the lewd dance. She moans like an animal in heat… then again, isn’t that what she is?
We share a passionate kiss of lovers. A thirty-one-year-old mother and a barely pubescent girl. My heart is swelling in triumph. I’ve made Amy do the unspeakable. I’ve encouraged her to make love to my child of three, and to allow Nina to love her in return.
I’m so close to coming again, keyed up by the sheer perversion of what we’re doing… and Amy’s luscious kisses only make the need for release more intense.
I feel Amy’s labored breaths, sense the motion of her hand as she continues to masturbate, bent forward over my lap, her nipple stimulated by my child’s warm mouth. She hums with pleasure as my tongue plays wicked games with hers.
In between kisses, I edge Amy further. “You love my little girl’s body, don’t you? So sweet, so forbidden…”
An excited shiver races through her slender frame, giving me my answer.
“And licking her smooth little cunny, yes. Don’t you love doing that, giving my child pleasure with your mouth?”
Amy’s lips, wet with kissing, are so close to mine that her words seem to enter my mouth. “Ooooh God, please don’t…” She wants me to stop questioning her, stop reminding her of what she just did.
But I’m too far gone to oblige her. “Answer me!” I demand.
“Yes!” Amy cries. I am pushing the poor girl deeper into self-awareness, perhaps further than she wants to go… but it’s for her own good. She has to embrace her true self, recognize this fierce craving as part of who she is.
“Is that why you’re touching yourself, then?” I continue. “Because that’s how much it thrills you, going down on my little girl, licking her cunt? Letting her suck your nipples?”
My young lover is on the verge of blessed oblivion as I make her face the truth: that she, fourteen-year-old Amy, an all around good girl, straight-A student and glee club member, is caught up in a helpless craving for lesbian sex with an older woman and her pre-nursery school daughter. That her need is stronger than rational thought. That she can’t stop herself from giving in to these twisted desires, even if she wanted to.
I’m about to come as well, awed by how utterly I’ve corrupted this once innocent teen. We’re in it together, partners in perversion… and it makes me so goddamned hot.
“Do you want to be fucked?” I ask Amy, using the crude word on purpose. She’s not the kind of girl who talks like that. I’ve teased her about it a few times.
Her face is so close to mine that I can read the struggle in her eyes. Amy shudders, moans… her arm still pumping, the busy hand a blur between her parted thighs.
“Don’t you come yet, girl!” I tell her, my tone razor-sharp. “Not until you answer my question.”
“Yes,” gasps Amy. “Yes, I — I want to fuck!”
I peer over the girl’s shoulder for a good look at Amy’s mother Sue, who is sitting in a chair in the corner. She is naked, just as we are, and masturbating as she watches us.
Sue is an older version of her daughter, still quite attractive in her late thirties, with generous breasts that, I suspect, look very much like Amy’s will when she fully ripens. Not quite as firm as they once were, perhaps, but impressive in size and shape, and her tummy is soft and welcoming. Sue has her hair pulled back into a ponytail. Her face has a few lines, but they only emphasize her mature beauty.
At this moment, Amy’s mother seems to radiate desire — hardly surprising, seeing as she’s been observing our lewd games from the very start.
Sue was my lover first… but she was surprisingly understanding when I admitted to my attraction to Amy. Not long after that, she realized that her daughter was nursing a huge crush on me as well.
She has a medium sized dildo in her hand that she slowly works in and out of her pussy. The toy hums as it vibrates deep inside her cunt.
Of course I’ve corrupted her, too. Sue and her daughter have both been drawn a step at a time into my world of sex, lust and depravity. Now, though, it’s time for her to do more than just watch.
“Come here, Sue,” I tell her.
Her generous breasts wobble as she rises, the glistening dildo in her hand, and pads over to where Amy is bent forward in my lap, her nipple still in my child’s mouth.
Little Nina is lying on her back, head nestled between my breasts. She is happily sandwiched between my body and Amy’s, warm and cozy.
“Get down on your knees,” I tell Sue. She obediently positions herself behind Amy. “Touch her,” I say. “Touch your daughter’s cunt.”
Surprised, Amy raises her head. Until now, her mother has only been a witness to our forbidden games, and has yet to participate. That changes now.
Sue is staring at me. She wasn’t expecting this, either. “I – I shouldn’t…”
“You should,” I tell her. “It’s what you want, after all.”
Amy’s eyes widen when she hears that. I can practically read her thoughts. Mom wants to touch me there?
It’s true, Sue does want to fondle her daughter – and more, much more.
She’d admitted as much to me one night, several days after I’d confessed the deeply-held desire I had for her daughter. How I’d dreamed of having young Amy for my lover. I didn’t mention wanting to bring Nina into it, or the things I longed to see Amy do to my little girl – not yet.
That was when Sue told me, You know, I’ve had those kinds of feelings for Amy, too. I first noticed them when she was nine, after I saw her naked in the bathroom. That night I – I touched myself, thinking about her beautiful body.
She looked up at me. You think that makes me a bad mother?
I reassured her, told a mournful Sue that she was a wonderful mother. But all the while, I was making plans to realize her fantasy, then go further still, bringing the four of us together in a bond of forbidden pleasure – Sue, Amy, Nina and me.
Now, my wicked dream is on the brink of coming true.
“Do it,” I say, transfixing Sue with a steady, unblinking gaze. “Put your hand between Amy’s legs. Touch her, love her. She wants it, too.”
In truth, I’m not exactly sure that Amy does want sex with her mother. She’d never said so, and I’d never asked. But when Sue glances down at the girl, her mouth goes slack, eyes going wide.
What’s happening? I look for myself, thrilling at the sight of Amy raising her taut bottom, presenting it to Mommy, waiting to be fondled.
I can only imagine what’s going through Sue’s head as she stares at her daughter’s pretty pink holes, absently moistening her lips, perhaps imagining what it would be like to taste them. “Oh God,” she moans.
Amy shudders, her eyes meeting mine. There is a hint of fear, knowing that she is about to cross a line with her mother, to take their relationship into uncharted territory. But the danger excites her as well… and that, coupled with the need for release, is enough to overpower her concerns. She is ready for this, possibly even eager.
Lips quivering, Sue hesitantly slips a hand between her daughter’s thighs.
I can’t see Sue’s fingers make contact with Amy’s slit, but the gasp that escapes my young lover’s throat and the jolt of pleasure that shakes her body tells me everything I need to know.
“Mom,” she whispers. “Oh… oh, Mom.”
“My sweet Amy,” Sue says. “God, I love you.”
Amy begins to sway to and fro to the gentle rhythm of her mother’s fingers. She is still cradling Nina close, still nursing her. A surge of love for Amy overcomes me as she buries her face in the spun-sugar hair of my daughter, purring with pleasure.
Then I notice that my daughter has reached up to touch Amy’s other breast with a little hand while she suckles – cupping it, fondling it. Could her gesture be sexual, or is it merely affectionate? Or could that impossibly soft globe be a new plaything for my Nina to enjoy? Whatever the reason, the sight steals my breath away.
Now Sue is bent forward, nuzzling the flawless bottom of her own child, kissing it once, twice, three times. Her eyes drift open, and she pauses to admire the beauty of Amy’s cunt and anus, caressing both openings with curious fingertips.
Sue is so enthralled by the sight that she starts when I speak. “Put a finger inside her,” I say.
She hesitates, but only for a few seconds. Amy gives an ecstatic cry, then breathes, “Yes,” as Mommy penetrates her for the first time.
It’s only been two weeks since I took Amy’s virginity with my favorite vibrator, so she’s still very tight. But she’s also intensely aroused, moving steadily toward the all-consuming emptiness of orgasm. She is never quick to come, our Amy – no matter how intense her excitement is, my young lover has to work her way up to that sweet, final release, and when it finally happens… well, she goes off like a hand grenade.
I can detect movement as Sue slides her finger into Amy’s vagina, then pulls back. In again, out again. Slow. Gentle. Like a loving mommy should do when pleasuring her daughter.
Amy’s mother is placing tender kisses on the girl’s bottom. She senses that I am watching, and lifts her head to meet my eyes. All I see is love and lust. She sees the same from me.
“My God,” she whispers. “She’s so… so fucking wet.”
When I first knew Sue, she never used dirty words; never even discussed sex, even when she and I were in bed together. Perhaps that is why I ached so badly to take the woman out of her comfort zone. Teach her the joys of life on the razor’s edge.
Sue’s eyes are hungry. “C-can I taste her?”
I feel a shiver run through Amy as she hears her mother’s words. Of course, I have no objection to Sue going down on her daughter, but it thrills me to hear her ask permission. “Yes, you can,” is my reply.
The woman is on her knees; now she gets down on all fours, her face an inch of two from Amy’s cunt. I see her slowly draw forward, then Amy cries, “Oh!” as Mommy steals a warm, luscious kiss, then pauses to enjoy the flavor of it.
For a few heartbeats, I’m lost in the memory of going down on Amy for the first time, how the sheer beauty of the moment moved me to tears. Then Amy moans, and I’m brought back to the here and now.
I slip a hand between Amy and my daughter’s warm tummy, until it rests on Nina’s baby-smooth vulva. I’m holding it. Cupping it. So warm and silky soft, like nothing else on earth.
“Kiss me,” I instruct Amy. My voice is slightly hoarse… merciful Christ, I’m so fucking close to coming. “Kiss me while your mommy licks you.”
Amy raises herself, and our mouths meet again. Still feasting on her daughter – I can actually hear the liquid sound of it – Sue whimpers as she sees us share a deep, hungry kiss, our tongues tangling and twirling in a lustful dance.
I’ve still got a hand between my little girl’s legs, touching her bare slit. But I’m watching Sue over Amy’s shoulder. Really, all I can see is the upper half of her face – the mouth and nose are nestled between the girl’s cheeks as she pleasures her daughter’s holes.
Amy and I continue to French kiss. She is moaning into my hungry mouth, as if feeding me her lust. What a wild, dangerous, wonderful gift to receive from a girl of fourteen!
This must be what gods feel like. I’ve done it, realized my ultimate desire. The four of us are bound together in a hot, sweaty tangle of lesbian sex, incest and pedophilia. The world would respond to what we’re doing with horror and disgust, but never in my life have I felt so wonderfully free.
Now Amy is too out of breath to kiss me, and her head slips down to rest on my shoulder. She is panting for air, trembling helplessly, drawing closer and closer to blissful release. Sue is trailing her tongue through the crack of her daughter’s ass, then she licks a path back down to Amy’s cunt. The girl cries out, so I know that Mommy is paying special attention to her clitoris.
A jerk shakes Amy’s slender frame, then another – and just like that, she is coming. I quickly cup her face in my hands so I can peer into her eyes. I want to see the storm taking her soul.
“Come for me, Amy,” I tell her. “Come for your mother. Feel her tongue, gliding over your pretty cunt. Feel my child’s mouth on your nipple. That’s it, just let go, let it happen…”
Amy gives one final, violent shudder, then her eyes swim out of focus. “Oh, Mom – I love you,” she manages to say before going limp. I catch her with one arm as she slumps to the side. A pleasure-dazed Nina is startled to have lost Amy’s nipple, but I bring her to my own breast, where she latches on without a word.
Though she is out of breath, Amy manages to find my other nipple, then takes it into the lovely warmth of her mouth. It takes my breath away, the pure ecstasy of nursing both my girls at once.
Then I see Sue kneeling behind Amy. She has an arm wrapped around her daughter, and is caressing the girl’s flawless little breasts. Quickly straightening, Amy turns to face her mother, and they meet in a kiss that quickly strikes fire, their tongues emerging to play.
Then – oh, my God – I see Sue’s free hand seeking out the bare body of my little girl, fondling her, too. I stare in awe as she gently toys with Nina’s vaginal cleft, probing it with the tip of a finger.
Sue and I have made love many times, but she has never before shown sexual interest in my daughter. Not a hint of it. Why is she touching her so intimately now? I don’t know, but my excitement is at a fever pitch.
The possibilities dazzle me. In fact, I’m downright giddy at the idea of all four of us being lesbian lovers – no pleasure left unexplored, no combination of sex partners that isn’t allowed, with me as the conductor who calls the tune.
That is when my own wall-shaking orgasm claims me, rising inside like a sudden storm – and all I can do is give myself over to its power. I’m not even touching myself, but that doesn’t matter, not when I’m living out this twisted, perverse, beautiful fantasy.
The world is mine, and I swallow it in a single ravenous gulp.
The End
Afterword: Thank you for reading my latest story.
As always, JetBoy served as the editor who made my musings better than I could ever make them solo. His patience with my writing, his understanding of what I am trying to convey, his gentle nudges where the story needed something more, less or different, it is all very much appreciated. And you, reader, benefit from it as much as I do. Thank you, JetBoy, for editing… but also for keeping this beautiful space for our writing alive and well. There are no words to describe how important Juicy Secrets is for me.
This story was a departure for me in that it included a more forceful protagonist. I have not written from that perspective before. I am not that. But through a recent online relationship I have learned a great deal more about myself, and that I am, perhaps, more of a “follower”, more of an “obeyer” than I realized I was. And I have one special person to thank for that. You know who you are.
Beautiful story! Thanks for sharing.
This really hit the spot. I can’t say that about many stories these days.
Raw, dripping; A story that – in your own words – hisses and snarls.
Yet somehow it manages to restrain itself too, maintains a certain realism without descending into the cacophony of overblown climax scenes that so many stories do.
Now, of course, I’m left to imagine what other perverted things they got up to after ‘The End’. And I will…
One important thing I forgot to mention:
The revelation half way through the story that Amy’s mother has been sitting in the corner watching and fucking herself with a dildo, was a HUGE turn on.
Thanks BlueJean. As one of my new favorite writers I am very happy you liked it. That revelation was as surprising to write as I hope it is to read. It literally came to me as I was writing, I did not have that planned from the beginning. To be honest, I usually have very little planned when I start writing. I usually have a visual in my head (a situation, an interaction, sometimes just a sentence) and then I start writing. If all goes well, the story just flows from and around that one image. For this story, all I had was the idea of having a 14 year old admit her perversion to an adult, and the adult coaxing and deliberately feeding into that. Thanks again for sharing your feedback.
Writing organically like that, without being entirely sure where it’s going to take you, can be incredibly satisfying when you get it right, and you’re in good company. Mind you, when plotlines and multiple chapters are involved, it might not be a very good idea. I’ll probably have to learn that lesson the hard way.
Anyway, it clearly works for you. One of the hottest stories I’ve read in a long while.
Thank you.
What an erotic story, so well written and detailed. It had me locked in from the start and then, like BlueJean, when I found out that Amy’s mom was there watching made it even more erotic. Thanks to BabyKeiko for writing this erotic story and to JetBoy for editing it.
Some serious, perverted kink! Great story!
Exquisite! It strikes so many chords with my own fantasies, I am literally trembling with emotion. Wow. I need to go process this for a while 🙂
Very good story could have had a little more at the end such as a 3 way with mother daughter and friend
WOW!! That was perfect in a way that few stories I have like this have been. This one hit me in every errogenous zone: mental, physical, sexual, spiritual as well. Yeah not a thing wrong with it. It was beautiful. Thank you and more please?
Sorry…but
Abusing infants isn’t my cup of tea.
Same. I stopped reading when I got to that part.
This story had all the makings of being great. Abusing infants is wrong. The story could have taken so many great avenues but choose not to. I’m appalled at this and the comments.
I agree with you entirely, those crossed the line. I’m surprised and slightly disappointed that the site admins have published it.
Everyone has a right to their own opinion of course, but I’m not sure this is a place for making moral judgements. Juicy Secrets and similar sites are places where people can express desires and explore sexualities that many people would consider abhorrent.
So one of the characters is too young for your tastes — I’m guessing your interests still fall into the underage/illegal category. If you were to frequent a mainstream forum and make this known, you would likely receive a similar reaction as you’re giving here. What would your defense be when people told you ‘abusing’ young girls of 8, 10 or even 14 is wrong?
The other point I’d like to make is this: these are fictional stories we’re talking about. Clearly, no one should be doing this kind of thing in real life. It’s pure fantasy. What happens in the stories stays in the stories, right?
That said, if depicting nepiophilia is a break from the norm for Juicy Secrets, there may be a discussion to be had there.
The bottom line is this: JS is a safe place that should be free of shame and judgement. If a story isn’t your ‘cup of tea’, move on and live & let live.
Which is exactly what I personally did. I proffered no judgement.
BlueJean..
there are differences in what you describe here. In this story, the infant has no choice in the matter. THAT is abhorrent. I’m sorry, but this does cross the line and, while I do respect what you state, there has to be some standard. Unfortunately the administration had decided that there are no lines that should exist. I heartily disagree. I’m extremely disappointed that not one of them has even made a statement.
Anyone who reads the stories on this site knows that it pushes boundaries and sometimes operates on the limit of what might be deemed “acceptable”. Every contributer and reader will have different tastes and will enjoy, or not enjoy, different stories with different themes depending on those tastes. However, every story I have read, those that I’ve enjoyed or not, have involved consent on the part of the characters involved. Depicting a nonconsensual act on a baby is to depict abuse. For a story that contains that abuse to be on here demeans the site and demeans the administrators for publishing it. It should be a “safe space”. Including abuse makes it anything but.
I refer you to the sites own guidelines for authors:
A character being molested, as in physical touching where there is a lack of consent. (There is a fine line here, of course. For example, if two characters are sexually involved, some touching, etc., when one character is asleep is fine, but if the character being touched has not given consent to being touched by the other person, that’s molestation.) This includes drugging a character without their consent for sexual purposes. Essentially, if sexual contact is non-consensual, we won’t be publishing it.
The last sentence says it all. This story quite clearly does not comply with the guidelines.
Sublime! As a writer myself, I am never fond of comments that say: “Hoping for a part two…” So, I wont say that (even though I secretly am…teehee).
I do know, Keiko. And I am sorry for my moodiness. If you care to forgive, and resume our accord, I am ready. Well, done, dear. And thank you. And thank you for Amy!
We are currently discussing the concerns expressed by you good people about the content of this story, and should be reaching a decision about how best to address those concerns very soon. Stay tuned.
In the meantime, thanks to everyone (and I do mean everyone) for commenting.
Perhaps the addition of story codes might help, although I would imagine that idea has been discussed before.
I haven’t read the story, my sister knew I wouldn’t like it and advised me accordingly. But she did… to a point. Had there been, for example an infant code, she would not have done so.
Thank you for taking the time to consider this story. The sites own guidelines for authors states:
A character being molested, as in physical touching where there is a lack of consent. (There is a fine line here, of course. For example, if two characters are sexually involved, some touching, etc., when one character is asleep is fine, but if the character being touched has not given consent to being touched by the other person, that’s molestation.) This includes drugging a character without their consent for sexual purposes. Essentially, if sexual contact is non-consensual, we won’t be publishing it.
Our two cents. Full disclosure, we were shocked by the baby sex scene. Like some others said it could not be consensual.
BabyKeiko is a very good writer. And yes these are stories, not a real thing. All the stories here are really non consensual. In the stories the adults always ask, “Are you okay with this?” And the underage children always are ‘okay’ with it. It doesn’t matter, the fictional children are not of a legal age to give their consent, and the fictional adults should not be doing what they do.
There are a lot things in stories that don’t turn us on, smelling panties, sex toys, water sports, hetro sex and so on. We ignore it and move on.
This story is well done and we admit enjoying it till it got to that part. Stories here are sometimes very edgy. I recall one about a mentally disabled child that turned us off and drew criticism, and other stories that involve things that wouldn’t be in good taste even here. At least the baby is not physically hurt? and will have no memory of it.
The founders of the site,two of which aren’t active participants any longer : ( , may feel the need to shake things up now and then. There are many guest writers these days, and finding new angles for a basic theme, lesbian incest, has made for a huge variety of stories. Some better than others but keeping the interest of long time readers. The subject itself is something I think most of us would be hard pressed to discuss with anyone except for other readers here.
Sometimes in our mind we change things, like age and so on to enjoy a story more. Sometimes a story doesn’t turn us on or interest us, sometimes a story hits our buttons just right.
Hard to please everyone, it can’t be done. I don’t envy those trying to decide what to do about this story. I see both sides. In a nut shell this is a fantasy fiction site of lesbian incest involving underage girls. As such it is much more professionally done and thoughtful than any other site we’ve seen in this subject matter. That the site runners even considers these things at all proves that.
p.s. this isn’t the only story here that has used babies in a sexual way
This is an incredibly beautiful and well-written story. I loved it entirely. I understand the comments about the infant and consent but to me, the mom wants nothing but love for her baby and simply was pleasuring her sweet baby girl. I know that this is characterized as “abuse” and “molesting” perhaps; however, for me, it was not abusive at all, purely unbridled love for a baby girl and 2 others that are very close to this amazing mother.
Just a short comment from me. I too stopped reading, even though the story is very well written, it just wasn’t right for my tastes.
But in a way that is the beauty of this site. It gives us choices, to read, or not to read!
And then to be able to debate through the medium of the comments box, unlike other sites which seem to censor without reason.
At least this particular story has probably created more discussion than for a long time, and that alone almost makes it worth adding.
Long continue please JS and everyone who makes the effort to contribute!!
Well, I had another big comment to make but it’s probably best if I don’t. We all know how that goes: we start dissecting each other’s words, it goes back and forth, and then eventually we all forget what it was we were originally trying to convey.
It’s good we can have a discussion without it descending into unpleasantness. I respect people’s views, even if I don’t always agree with them.
And let’s not forget, at the center of all this is Keiko. Keiko — take a look at your votes, they speak for themselves. You wrote a great story and courted a bit of controversy too! Rock & Roll!
I am sorry I’ve caused such controversy. I don’t write with the idea to do so. I also don’t write with the idea of “abuse”. I appreciate all the comments, including the ones that place a fair criticism or express feelings of unease. I, too, have read stories that didn’t do it for me, and in those instances just stopped reading (I am not fan of fantasy, sci-fi or BDSM themed storylines. I struggle with historical stories). I am super grateful for having Juicy Secrets. I’m super grateful for counting JetBoy as my friend. I will leave it up to the site admins to decide what to do with this story. And to all the commenters, and I do mean ALL commenters, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.
You have nothing the be sorry for! I (as well as many others here) loved your story, and I for one applaud your courage to write it. It is loving and eloquent, articulate and extremely erotic. I still hope there is a part 2! 🙂
We think you’re a very good writer and enjoy your stories. This one was a little out of our league and we know you understand.
We hope you will keep writing, and please don’t self censor your self when you do.
I hope this hasn’t discouraged you to write the way you want to write.
If the central arguement is the breaking of guidelines, then fair enough, but no author should have to feel that what they’re producing is ‘wrong’.
Thankfully most of us know the difference between real life and fiction.
Please post the original story as-is to Leslita site instead. There we accept and appreciate stories of even the youngest characters.
I did not see the pre-edited version so my comments refer to only the edited and re-posted version.
I’ve been a lurker here for going on at least 5 years, if not longer. I first stumbled on juicy secrets before it was taken down and moved to juicysecrets.club. I’ve read and re-read many, if not all, of the stories here.
In my opinion, this is the hottest story I’ve read here. I didn’t make it past the Amy’s initial taste of Nina’s pussy. I can’t wait to recover and read more.
Is there a verdict? Not sure why the sexual abuse of a baby takes so long to think about. It would to take lot less time to report this story to the recant authorities.
A verdict? If you are looking for a criminal, you convict yourself by visiting this site, and reading these stories. I suggest you learn the difference between fantasy and reality.
The decision is the right one, even though it must have been difficult for both JetBoy and keiko. I applaud you both.
Now I look forward to the ‘retooled’ version so as I may finish reading a good story.
Well, we didn’t get to read it but it wouldn’t be our taste either. Good judgement base on the guidelines here.
Frankly, it’s absurd to say that a fictional story about an adult initiating sexual contact with a “consenting” 3 year-old (as occurs in numerous stories here) is fine, but that one involving a 1 year-old is beyond the pale. Toddlers? Perfectly okay to write about fucking. Infants? You inhuman monster.
Which is not to criticize the admins for their decision. But some people here are in an astonishing amount of denial.
Aye. It’s just like… Where do you think you are? What do you think the material on this site IS?
I refrained from commenting earlier, but I do applaud the decision. My tastes skew towards coming of age girls and older, though children much younger can obviously be curious / aroused regarding sexual activities. I think a good rule of thumb is that all participants must be able to communicate that they want to participate in the sexual acts, and that their desire to participate is genuine. JMTCW.
Boo! Post it on Leslita!
I won’t lie… it was not a decision I was eager to make, knowing that it would irk readers on one side or the other. Also, I didn’t want to be unfair to my dear friend Keiko. Luckily, she was amenable to the idea of reworking the story (which is nearing completion, by the way), so it seemed best to take the post down.
Must say, I’m a bit surprised that the readers who complained the most have yet to respond. Hopefully, they haven’t given up on Juicy Secrets for good.
JetBoy
I want to thank you and Keiko first of all. I guess I started this all but won’t apologize for something that I believe in. You’ve both been extremely patient and gracious. I decided not to respond too much to stir up any other discontent or trouble. I haven’t gone away. Thank you for your hard work. It is much appreciated.
There’s no need to apologize anyhow, my friend. You spoke your mind in an honest way, and your concern was at least partially motivated by a desire for Juicy Secrets to be better. That’s the kind of criticism we’re happy to get, even when it stings a bit.
Thanks to you, Tracy… and to everyone else who weighed in. We’ll be expecting responses from all of you when the new version rears its head!
Still curious to know what’s the meaningful difference between stories that feature toddlers and this one. The idea that this story was any “worse” than most of the material here is absurd.
That was going to be my defense, actually, but another point was made that objected to the story on the grounds of consent, rather than age. A three-year-old does have the ability to refuse or say no, whereas an infant isn’t sufficiently developed. That’s a literal violation of Juicy Secrets policy, something I neglected to catch before posting the original version of this story.
As someone COMPLETELY against censorship, I will not be reading the revised version. I am BEYOND disappointed that of the multiple ways this could be handled to appease both sides whether that be via story codes or a page for spicier stories, it was handed this way. The lack of any sort of code usage for possible points of contention has always been baffling to me. As shown here, different strokes for different folks.
The comments and votes should be a clear indicator that there IS an audience here for these extra spicy stories, and maybe leadership should re-evaluate it’s constraints. Do you think allowing these no-no subjects in stories somehow degrades the “image” of the site? Spoiler: It doesn’t. The proof of interest shows room to grow. The arbitrary rules on what can or can’t be in a story have never been what makes this site sit above the rest. It has always been the high bar of the vetting process giving us extremely talented authors, their well written stories, and the top tier proofing done to them.
Keiko, I humbly request you have your story posted uncensored as it was intended on a less close minded site like LL, because it would be a shame to all those that loved it if it was to disappear forever.
Both Juicy Secrets and Lesbian Lolita practice censorship to some extent, my friend. If you take the time to look, we each have lists of themes and sexual practices that we don’t accept. Do we “censor” stories with major heterosexual content? Yes, we do, as does LL. The new LL accepts scat themes, but the old site didn’t… nor do we. I’ve yet to see an erotic story site that will take anything at all, but please enlighten me if I’m mistaken.
Recently, I had to insist that one of our authors alter a scene in which a character is drugged without her knowledge, to loosen her up for sex. It says right there on our policy page that such shenanigans are beyond the pale, so the author obligingly changed the scene so that it passed muster.
Near as I can tell, our only crime against free expression in this instance would be allowing this story to get posted in violation of JS policy, rather than rejecting it or insisting on changes — a mistake for which I take full responsibility. Especially since (gulp!) I edited it in the first place. If anyone’s head belongs on the chopping block here, it’s mine.
As for submitting the original version of “The Corruption of Amy” to LL… I think that’s a marvelous idea, and suggest that Keiko do that very thing. That way you get two of her stories instead of one.
I think this was always a thread of two arguements — The breaking of guidelines and the moral debate about what’s acceptable and what isn’t.
Juicy Secrets has a devoted readership based around a set of guidelines and a certain aesthetic that was established years ago. It’s a less extreme, higher quality version of Leslita. That’s what it is. You respect that or you move on. JetBoy, in his enthusiasm to tinker with a great story, let one slip through the net. Let’s not hold that against him.
In regards to the debate about when it becomes acceptable to initiate a child into a sexual relationship, regardless of some perceived consent, I have a hard time applying those arguements to fictional stories. I have my likes and dislikes, the same as everyone else, but never do I feel morally threatened by something that’s been conjured up by the imagination. And believe me, I’ve read some pretty unpleasant stuff.
Anyway, for what it’s worth, I’m interested to read the retooled version of Keiko’s story. You can’t judge a story until you’ve read it, after all.
.
Very well thought out comment. I agree that Juicy Secrets has established standards that have garnered a fairly loyal readership. JetBoy should be applauded for being responsive to the concerns of members of that readership who felt that Juicy Secrets standards had been lowered. JetBoy didn’t betray anyone by applying the sites standards to his and Babykeiko’s work. It may seem a bit “snowflakey”, but I appreciate being able to come to this site knowing that there will be a consistant standard of quality, and that my sensibilities and sensitivities won’t be totally dismissed to accomodate the most extreme content possible. The day that changes is the day I stop frequenting the site, because then Juicy Secrets will no longer be Juicy Secrets. And that would be a sad day indeed.
“Still a great story. I’d probably go with the less chatty original if I was pushed, but basically my original review still applies. Well done, Team Keiko!”
“Bastards!”
“Huh?”
“That little bitch stole my role!”
“Um… sorry, who are you?”
“Who am I? WHO AM I?! I’m the actor who played the original baby, that’s who! Not that it matters anymore…”
“Oh.. I thought I recognised you. I’m… er… really sorry about what happened.”
“They even gave her a speaking role! All I got was a couple of fucking gurgles! Talk about rubbing salt into the wound! Bastards!”
“Yeah… that’s… that’s really rough.”
“It was gonna be my big break! This, then who knows, Shakespeare maybe! The world was my oyster!”
“Yeah… I just can’t imagine what you’re going through.”
“‘Oh, we need to let you go! You’re too young! You’ve broken some guidelines!’ Yeah right… kick me to the fucking curb, why don’t you.”
“I feel for you, I really do. So… what will you do now? If you don’t mind me asking.”
“I’m doing a zoophillia story on Leslita if you must know… What?! Don’t judge me! I need to earn a living, same as everyone else!”
“Hey, I wasn’t judging! Some of those bestiality stories can be quite tasteful if they’re done right.”
“Yeah whatever…”
“Um… bye then. Just… just go easy with that bottle of whiskey, okay? And good luck!”
“Bastards…”
“Wow… that was awkward.”
“She twists around to peer up at me, ‘Yes, Mommy!'”
lmao, I guess that’s one way to make it absolutely, 200% crystal clear that it does, in fact, conform to the guidelines.
Babykeiko should post the original at Leslita where they’re not so squeamish.
I am conflicted here as to what to say. I read the first version and enjoyed it. I understand that some people were appalled at an infant being involved, but after all it is all fantasy and if you didn’t like it you didn’t have to keep reading it. On the other hand though I don’t think a 3yo understands consent either, she should of been more like 5 or 6,like the youngest are in most of the stories here. (I am not looking for a rewrite though,lol) In the end, I liked both versions of this story and looking forward to reading more of this authors stories.
P.S. I was also surprised that the mother had dried up. If she had been nursing her daughter still, she would been still producing milk (correct me if I am wrong) and would of been and added benefit for Amy.
I think the issue with the guideline is being able to verbalise “consent”. I think it’s a bit of a silly guideline since, and let’s be real here, the majority of the material in this site involves characters who don’t understand consent, even if they’re able to verbalise the word “yes”, but the guideline is what it is.
Not the same for me as the first edition was, still a nice story though.
Thank you for your hard work.
Great work. I’m glad it was revised and posted in its current form. Very much worth the effort. Thank you all.
I have added my two’penneth in the past when there is a contentious issue raised, but haven’t until now on this furore (mostly because I took some time off). There are some/many/most who comment constructively on stories because the vast majority of the good people who frequent JS are very choosy about their erotica and appreciate the quality of the writing and integrity of the editing. They will submit their honest opinions and others will take opposing views, as has been the case here. Then they will get on with their lives and come back tomorrow to see what other delights await them.
However, there are others who will object more strongly and some who forget this is not real. Although I said in my intro at the very start of Ripples, that some of the stories on Loliwood had a little too much domination for my liking, I’m not going to come down on either side of the arguments for or against the original version of this story, but just put a thought out for consideration. If a story riles someone to the extent that they feel aggrieved enough to alert some officious authority, despite being frequent visitors to the site, JS might receive unwelcome attention that possibly might result in the loss of this treasure, which would be a travesty.
The guidelines are there to protect the freedom to write and read the kind of material to which JS is dedicated, and to ensure the material conforms to certain constraints that are plain for all to see, so in making the decision to make the changes, Jetboy and BabyKeiko have acted in the interests of the authors and readers and should be applauded for their honesty, bravery and integrity.
It’s true, as Sapphmore mentions, that one of our reasons for removing this story in its original form was a growing concern that the content could well have resulted in Juicy Secrets getting shut down, if someone gets mad enough to make a big stink with our host. It’s happened twice before… and we still get threats every now and again. Frankly, if this site gets nuked a third time, I’ll be throwing in the towel.
That would make me very sad, and yet I understand,and can’t blame you, but what a great loss it would be for so many.
Makes me think of that case a few years back about the cop and the cannibalistic website he was on. Went to trial for attempted murder, I think, I don’t recall it too well. Anyway acquitted because it was role play with no intent to really eat people, though it was done so real he was arrested and went to trial. No one wants to end up as the pizza parlor that in reality has no basement.
I guess it is time for a post mortem. I want to first of all thank my friend Jetboy for his efforts, counsel and support. The rewrite was very much his doing with some/little input from me. Secondly, I want to thank all commenters, regardless if you were for/against/on the fence of the argument. I believe that the reasons I agreed to change the story was that it, in its original form, broke the ethics code of the very site it was published on, and because it could attract unwanted attention, as Jetboy indicated.
This website, and Jetboy, are very very dear to me. I had NO idea this story was going to create the firestorm that it did. The story is not part of the JS archives. The original may find a home somewhere else, and if it does I will gladly let you know (maybe Leslita, maybe Fallen Angels). If you don’t want to wait that long I will happily send it to you via email (I only accept email from secure/encrypted addresses such as Proton or Tutanota).
Thank you again for engaging… poor Amy: first she was corrupted and then the tale about said corruption created outrage. She will be fine. I know she will… I created her 😉
I’d like to chime in with thanks of my own for all you readers who had something to say, either pro or con, about this story in both versions. What’s been revealed to me is that there are a lot of people out there who truly care about Juicy Secrets… and I can’t help but feel good about that!
Special love and thanks to my beloved Keiko, for being the best sport imaginable through this craziness. You are a rare flower in the garden of humanity.
I’m not familiar with Fallen Angels. Do you have a link?
BlueJean: email me. 😘😘😘
I read the original version but the inclusion of the infant was a turn off for me personally, that’s not to say the writing wasn’t excellent, which it is of course. In the stories I write consent is a big thing for me. My characters have to be old enough to not only verbalise consent but understand consent. Which really is laughable, what ever way we look at this, they are underage, but as has been said above, this is fiction, not fact. Sites like LL cater for infant sex, JS does not. If we are to allow infant sex, then so be it, but it must be done under a change of the rules, otherwise what’s the point in having the rules in the first place? Those rules give the authors and readers a sense of stability and comfort in knowing what they will and will not be encountering on JS. I abhor censorship, but we all knew the rules when we turned up here, removing the baby from this story was the right thing to do to remain in keeping with the rules of JS.
As an author on here I want freedom for me and other authors to write what we want, so in theory I’d support a rule change to allow infant sex. However, if that was to bring unwanted attention to JS and potentially even bring it down then the risk is to high, far to high.
Hello,
After some consideration, I thought I’d uncloak and make a contribution here.
I do not, of course, expect for one microsecond that this comment will appear on the website, but if you want to start a conversation, you have my email address.
It was interesting that even many hardened pedos on here couldn’t stomach the original incarnation of this story.
I would point out that your justification for allowing the revised version is risible. Your understanding of sexual consent seems to be lamentably poor and I’d like to take this opportunity to make a couple of points.
‘Consent’ means to give permission for something to happen. Children are not able to consent to sexual activity. Children are not able to give consent because they cannot fully understand what they
are consenting to, or the emotional impact and consequences of sex. Being able to verbalize is irrelevant.
Your use of the ‘but she consented because she said “Yes Mummy”‘ figleaf is, I would suggest, simply an example of self-justification behavior that is very commonly observed in pedophiles.
I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on this. However, if you’re going to reply, please only do so if you actually want to have a sensible conversation. Don’t just fire back generic personal insults, as one of your contributors has a habit of doing.
Best Regards, Amy
The firestorm ignited by this story seems like the perfect opportunity to set my thoughts on the content of our site into print. Hopefully, any interest the commenter just above has in my chaotic musings will be amply rewarded.
Personally, I had no problem with Keiko’s original story, and prefer it to the revised version. (In fact, I agree those who think the changes I made to render it acceptable were more of a fig leaf than anything.) In the end, I took the first edition of this story down because 1) it violated site policy, and 2) I didn’t want to rewrite that policy to cover my ass.
Why, you may ask, was I not bothered by the content of “The Corruption of Amy”? One simple reason: IT ISN’T REAL.
For some reason, there are many people out there (on all sides of the political spectrum, mind you) who equate unsavory acts committed in fictional and creative works with the act itself. I’m not one of them. Why? Because again, IT ISN’T REAL.
As an avid music collector, I have a certain number of albums that describe acts of violence in fairly explicit, even sadistic terms. It’s not something I intentionally seek out, but there are musical artists who explore dangerous territory in interesting ways. Slayer’s Reign in Blood, NWA’s Straight Outta Compton, Boyd Rice’s Hatesville and Sodality’s Beyond Unknown Pleasures are examples of such. However, just because I enjoy these records doesn’t mean that I endorse their violent content… yet I’m not offended, either, because it’s all made up. (That said, I still wouldn’t play them for my mother.)
It’s fun to take in a good horror movie every now and then, especially when they have a sense of humor. When I saw the film Dead/Alive, my friends and I laughed convulsively from start to finish, despite the MASSIVE gore factor therein. That doesn’t mean that I’m okay with violence in real life. In fact, I’m a complete wimp when it comes to such things… but I also know that what I’m seeing on the big screen is makeup, special effects and gallons of fake blood.
One final example. Two novels I enjoy immensely are Joseph Heller’s Catch-22 and Anthony Burgess’ A Clockwork Orange. In both books, acts of rape take place. In the former, a military man rapes and kills a woman without a scrap of remorse, and in the latter, the protagonist Alex drugs two underage girls and sexually abuses them while they’re unconscious. Does that make the authors potential rapists… or the readers who love those books, for that matter? Certainly not. It also doesn’t mean that either of those fine works should be shunned by civilized society.
For the record, I don’t approve of sex with children, even older ones, just as I don’t think they should be allowed to drink, smoke or take recreational drugs. I have no desire whatsoever to have intimate relations with a child, and would be appalled to see most of the stories we have here that involve underage participants take place in real life. Yet I take great pleasure in reading them. Maybe that’s just evidence of the wondrous complexity of human beings. Or perhaps it’s about the difference between fantasy and reality, and the ability to keep them separate.
Finally, it’s saddening to see those who frequent and contribute to this site referred to as “hardened pedos.” The inclination to tuck others into easily filed-away categories is one huge reason why we’re so seldom able to relate to one another as people.
Thanks for indulging me. I’ve no doubt that we’ll be seeing another flurry of comments on this topic very soon.
To be fair, given a lot of the comments here, I don’t think it’s unfair to refer to at least some of the readers like that. It’s not unreasonable to assume from some of the things people post in the comments here (and Leslita for that matter) that many MANY readers here do want to engage in the stuff shown in these stories (and that some actually have). And I mean, it makes sense that a lot of the people who consume this content would crave it in real life.
For the record, I do agree with you that you CAN enjoy writing and reading this stuff without wanting to have sex with minors in real life. I know for a fact that real kids do nothing for me (I sought out out, you know, stuff on Tor specifically to figure this out for myself because I was freaking out. Did absolutely nothing for me). It’s more of the taboo kinkness of it that makes it appealing in these stories. But I do think it has to be acknowledged that this sort of mindset probably isn’t in the majority here.
As for the policy, it is what it is. If it’s there as a means of legal arse-covering, there’s no helping it, but if it was motivated by some sort of moral stance, I’d advise revising it because it does look quite silly. There’s a plethora of stories here involving three-year-old toddlers (Honey Loves comes to mind) and the idea that they’re meaningfully more aware of “consent” than an infant is nonsense.
So, I thought I’d wait a few days for the comments to come in. Not much of a ‘flurry’, after all.
Firstly, can I say thanks to Jetboy for having the balls to publish my original message. I honestly wasn’t expecting that, so kudos to you for facilitating the debate. I also was expecting some rather more vitriolic responses, so the civilized nature of what has been written was also a pleasant surprise, and much appreciated.
Let’s start with Jetboy’s invocation of the standard backstop defense: IT ISN’T REAL. Also touched on by BlueJean. So here’s the question: if that’s the standard get-out you can always fall back on, then why do you have story guidelines at all? No scat? Why not? IT ISN’T REAL, after all. Coercion/lack of consent? Fine, IT ISN’T REAL. Bestiality? ISN’T REAL (although I note you allow ‘mild bestiality’, whatever the hell that is). My theory would be that your guidelines are some sort of figleaf (that metaphor again; sorry) that allows you to convice yourself that this site isn’t actually just a tawdry masturbation aid for pedophiles, but some sort of artistic or intellectual endeavor.
Problem is that even stories such as you publish here can lead to events that are very real. It’s well understood that stories are an excellent gateway drug into image offending and even ‘real life’ offending. Comeonnow’s comment illustrates that perfectly. Although Comeonnow wisely pulled back, many do not. And the consequences then can get very real indeed. It’s also worth pointing out that the lenient laws around this material in the US are a bit of an outlier; your UK contributors, for example, are committing a serious criminal offense every time they publish something on this site.
The ‘hardened pedos’ comment that saddened Jetboy. What would you prefer? ‘underage erotica connoisseur’, perhaps? A gentle reminder: we are talking here about people who derive erotic pleasure from the material in stories such as ‘The Corruption of Amy’ and ‘The Little Prisoner’. I really doubt I’d get much argument about my terminology from the world at large (ie, outside of the JS bubble). Incidentally, one of the people whose contact details are listed on your ‘Staying in Touch’ page is currently serving a six-year prison term after his second conviction for CP possession/distribution offenses. Perhaps even Jetboy might concede that ‘hardened pedo’ applies in his case.
Best Regards,
Amy
Actually, I authorized your comment. Though, I am certain that JetBoy would have in my absence. The lack of responses to it, vitriolic or otherwise, can probably be attributed to the fact that our readers have gotten over it and moved on.
Very true Amanda.
I’ve always found the assertion that fiction influences real life to be a rather weak arguement. Undoubtedly it does, but does that mean we should ban any and all fiction that might be considered dangerous or subversive? If some mentally ill person reads a book about serial killers and it drives them to kill in real life, do we ban those books? Should we ban violent video games/movies/music too, on the basis it might influence real life? What if someone wears their underpants over their trousers and jumps off a high building after watching superman? Ban superman movies? I mean, we could. We could ban all forms of violence/abuse in our fictional works and end up with a sterilised form of self expression that in no way represents the world we live in. And the thing is, rape/sexual abuse/killing will still exist, just as it existed before the advent of movies/media/literature.
Are the stories here steering a minority towards the dark web or real life child abuse? Maybe. Are the stories here providing some outlet and steering people AWAY from the real thing? That’s an ongoing debate, I suppose.
As to why Juicy Secrets has guidelines in the first place, that’s probably something JetBoy is more qualified to answer, but I’m going to suggest the guidelines were a matter of personal preference for the three original founders. What kind of stories do we want to see on this new site of ours? What are we into? What are we not into? Not including bestiality, scat, hurtcore doesn’t imply hypocrisy, just a lack of interest or sexual gratification amongst the people who run the forum. I suppose avoiding the more extreme end of child erotica could have been a way to draw less attention to the site too.
Your posts have been very interesting, but there’s one thing I’m still not clear on – where you personally stand on the issue. I get the impression you’re a frequent visitor to this forum. Do you read the stories? Do you believe this forum shouldn’t exist? I’m just not entirely sure who you’re arguing against – the minority who objected to the original story, the admins for some perceived hypocrisy, or the stories themselves.
And finally, I’m certainly no legal expert but I’m pretty sure child erotica in pure text form is legal in the UK.
Amy, the simple reason we have guidelines is more to do with our personal taste than anything. Naughty Mommy, Cheryl and I elected to refuse stories featuring scat, hardcore bestiality, rape, humiliation and such because we didn’t enjoy that kind of erotica. It’s our site, so we get to call the shots. Simple as that. If I ran a record label, I would be under no obligation whatsoever to sign your shitty hair metal band just because you mailed us a demo.
To insinuate that our guidelines exist as some kind of cowardly ass-covering is not only flat-out insulting, it doesn’t even make sense. Is there a single erotic fiction site out there that will accept any kind of story at all? I’ve yet to see one.
I can also say that when setting up Juicy Secrets, we didn’t consider it either “a tawdry masturbation aid for pedophiles,” OR “some sort of artistic or intellectual endeavor.” From day one, my partners and I intended JS to be a source for the kind of erotica that we enjoyed, with an emphasis on better writing than you usually found at such sites.
As for the argument that it’s “well understood that stories are an excellent gateway drug into image offending and even ‘real life’ offending”… Understood by who? Is there a peer-reviewed study on the subject? Frankly, I’ve been hearing variants on this argument for ages now, and remain resolutely unconvinced. Back in the Fifties, it was commonly believed that comic books were turning our kids into juvenile delinquents. In the Eighties, a generous percentage of feminists maintained that sexual violence against women was the direct result of pornography and its influence on men. (“Porn is the theory, rape is the practice,” was their catchphrase.) Then there’s rap music and video games, both of which have been attacked repeatedly in years past for glorifying violence. Problem is, not one of these crusaders has ever made a coherent argument for their case. All of these things I listed above are around to this day and easier to lay hands on than ever… yet where is the upsurge of violence that we were promised would accompany them?
I have no doubt that at least some of our readers are legitimate pedophiles, and I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that at a few have been unable to restrain their appetites and did end up fiddling with kids. That said, I don’t believe for one second that our site was the catalyst that made them give in to their desires. If it’s in you to molest children, it’s not going to be a website of sex stories that causes you to fondle your six-year-old niece. Of course, I’m sure there have been many perps up on sex offense charges who would be happy to shift the blame to “that dirty story I read online,” in hopes of a lighter sentence. Hell, Ted Bundy tried to blame pornography for the crimes he committed – and why on earth would he tell a lie?
Finally, BlueJean makes an excellent point in his response, Amy. You do seem to visit us often, which begs the question: if this was your site to run, what guidelines would you deem appropriate? How young is too young to be featured in an erotic story? Is incest a complete no-no, or do you find it acceptable if the characters are of age? Would you make changes in how we do things, or simply shut the whole thing down?
We all draw our own lines, I suppose. To a large extent those lines/boundaries are dictated by the societies we live in. If we lived a world that accepted paedophilia in some form, some of us might have completely different views, or we might not be having this conversation at all. Generic Disclaimer: that’s merely an observation on my part, not a personal agenda.
I’m guessing most of us are content to simply read the stories and the fantasies they depict. In a world where child sex was the norm, would those stories even have the same appeal? For me – and I’m sure for many of us – the appeal is the forbidden nature of those fictional liaisons.
There are people who are going to take that a step further, and their curiosity might take them to some of the darker corners of the web. They’ll probably soon discover that fiction bears no resemblance to real life. They might come to the realisation that the fantasy is far more potent that the reality. Others might consider, or already have explored such things in real life. I could talk about the risks/consequences of that, but as a writer of child erotica that would seem awfully hypocritical.
But whatever your views, and wherever you choose to draw your own lines, I thought the one thing we could all agree on was that these stories are complete fantasy. They aren’t real. Whatever happens in the stories has little to no consequence in real life. Stories are merely thoughts written down – they’re no threat to anyone. The Nazis thought otherwise when they decided that burning books was a good idea.
But what I’ve learnt from this lengthy discussion is that those moral lines can also seep into imaginative works of fiction. And that’s okay, I guess. The human imagination is an incredibly complex and powerful tool. If my imagination can conjure up witches, Dryads and women having sex with little girls, then I suppose yours can create an imaginary set of moral boundaries that you feel the need to insert into that fictional setting.
We’re a strange species, aren’t we? I’m pretty sure it was a lot less complicated when we were all living in trees, flinging our own shit at each other.
By the way, Honey Loves hasn’t been published on this forum. That one’s on Leslita. Great story.
Honey Loves is on Juicy Secrets, here: https://www.juicysecrets.club/blog/2016/09/16/honey-loves-confessions-of-an-incestuous-mother-chapter-1/
Ah okay, I didn’t realise it was in the archives. I was looking under the author’s name.
Thanks for correcting me.
Please learn history and actually lookup the laws of consent and their history. You also should make yourself acquainted with the actual laws of fiction in every country and how they actually apply in other countries and why the internet can not actually be policed. There’s also the history of child mothers but again the history doesn’t agree with your point of view and so must be ignored.
I will also note your attempts to contact law enforcement have been ignored simply because you are using protonmail, an anonymous mail server, and thus are pretty much ignored. I will also remind you that under those some laws you are guilty as well.
Sorry Fur, not really sure what point you’re making here. Certainly I’m not aware of a jurisdiction where three year olds are considered capable of informed consent to participation in sexual activity, which is what precipitated this discussion in the first place. Although perhaps you could put me right on that.
Regarding Protonmail, I’m not sure where you get that from but I can assure you that it is not correct. Although, I guess that different agencies may have different policies. I have had several conversations with LEAs who don’t seem to care what email service I’m using. Although usually this doesn’t even come up; the majority of LEA online reporting forms are actually anonymous so email is irrelevant. A few do take phone numbers and I have had a couple of chats with very lovely LE officers.
Many thanks to BlueJean and Jetboy for taking the time to reply. Great that you’re actually engaging rather than wanting to ‘move on’, which all too often is, I suspect, a euphemism for “these questions are a bit awkward and uncomfortable so I’m unilaterally going to declare that ‘this matter is now closed’ and hope it goes away”. So again, kudos.
I’ll try to reply to both of you in one response, hopefully it’ll address the points you’ve made.
To answer Jetboy’s last question first, I’d shut it down. My own view is that sexual material featuring minors such as this should not be available on the public internet.
So you both express doubts about the influence that material such as appears on this site may have on real-life behavior. Well, to stretch BlueJean’s analogy a little, folks watching Superman are not generally doing so as part of a compulsive, addictive pattern of harmful behavior that is pushing them to jump off ever-higher things. You’re right, there is an ongoing debate about porn diverting folks away from more serious offending, however the emerging evidence seems to suggest otherwise; that there is a progression of porn use that steers users towards gradually ‘harder’ content. Quick straw poll: how many people reading this never – let’s say five years ago – imagined in their wildest dreams that they would be accessing this kind of material?
Jetboy is correct in that there isn’t much in the way of peer-reviewed academic research on this. Partly because the social scientists, psychologists etc have only recently woken up to this phenomenon, and partly because it’s kinda difficult to get an adequate sample size. But. As to your question of who is saying this, just get hold of a law enforcement officer working in this field, or someone working at a helpline such as the Lucy Faithfull Foundation, and they will emphatically tell you about the patterns of offending that they are seeing every day. The view that only people with these innate inclinations are going to offend more seriously, and that porn doesn’t influence that behavior, is long gone in LE circles.
Referring to the eighties is irrelevant. The. Internet. Has. Changed. Everything.
Some of your users – let me assure you – are most certainly ‘legitimate pedophiles’, as you put it. Amusing that you think others who just read fictional stories about sex with minors for sexual gratification are not ‘legitimate pedophiles’, but hey, denial and self-justification is quite useful, isn’t it?
Guidelines. So, according to BlueJean, “JS is a safe place that should be free of shame and judgement.” Except for things that you don’t like. Then shame and judgement are OK. Right, got it (I think).
“Tawdry masturbation aid”: Sorry Jetboy, but if you exhort your users to “Now grab yourself a fistful of Kleenex, put a towel down where you’re sitting and go read a story!” in a blog post you can’t really blame me for getting that impression. And “some sort of artistic or intellectual endeavor.” and “an emphasis on better writing” do seem to kind of go together.
“To insinuate that our guidelines exist as some kind of cowardly ass-covering is not only flat-out insulting, it doesn’t even make sense.” Except that you seem to fall back on your ridiculous ‘consent’ guideline because you’re worried about ‘drawing attention to the site’ and about it being shut down. Sounds like an attempt at ass-covering to me. Although as others have pointed out, if you imagine anyone outside the JS bubble is going to think that a depiction of sex with a one year old is bad but with a three year old is OK, you are delusional.
And finally BlueJean, I’m certainly no legal expert either but child erotica in pure text form is absolutely NOT legal in the UK. Especially not for your contributors. It’s true that the laws around this (for example, the Obscene Publications Acts) date back to the print era and badly need updating. But they still do apply, and anyone submitting an underage sex story to this site will be deemed a ‘publisher’ under the terms of the OPAs. Criminal offense. Interestingly, ‘publishing’ means distributing to at least one other person, so when they email a story to you, they are deemed to be a publisher, whether or not the story actually appears on the site. Neat, huh?
Thanks for listening and once again I appreciate the opportunity to contribute!
Amy
Amy
Regarding your comments on UK law, I do not believe you are correct that we are open to prosecution. The obscene publications act in regards to under age sex does not prosecute written publications, it focuses on pictures and videos etc. This is a segment from an article in the guardian:
“When it comes to obscenity, the law that has to be taken into account (in England and Wales) is the Obscene Publications Act 1959. When prosecuted under this Act in 1960, Lady Chatterley’s Lover was found not guilty, and subsequent guilty verdicts on Last Exit to Brooklyn and Inside Linda Lovelace were overturned on appeal in 1966 and 1976 respectively. Given the extreme difficulty of achieving a successful prosecution of the written word under the act, the prosecuting authorities have for many years fought shy of bringing such a case. Since the Linda Lovelace case in 1976, after which the Metropolitan police were reported as saying that if this was not obscene “nothing was”, it has come to be assumed that the written word to all intents and purposes falls outside the scope of the act .”
It may not be to your liking, but if stories such as those published here were to be prosecuted under the act then legally it opens up questions to literature in a much wider scope, which nobody wants.
The CPS website backs this up when talking about what they will not prosecute. Nowhere on the CPS page for obscene publications does it specifically relate to fictional written works. For all intents and purposes the act does not over fictional written works.
Thanks for your response, Joe.
I do realize, (as I said) that the laws are a bit of a rat’s nest, and it may well be that your interpretation is more accurate than mine.
However, what the law actually says is (my caps):
“The Obscene Publications Act 1959
The Obscene Publications Act 1959 (“the Act”) criminalises the publication (whether or not for gain) of an obscene article. It also criminalises a person who has an obscene article for publication for gain (personal gain, or gain for another), to be interpreted in accordance with the provisions of the Obscene Publications Act 1964.
“Article”: “any description of article containing or embodying matter to be READ or looked at or both, any sound record, and any film or other record of a picture or pictures”.
“Publish”: an article is published if it is distributed, circulated, sold, let on hire, given, lent, offered for sale or for letting on hire, or is shown, played, projected or transmitted electronically where the matter is data stored electronically (i.e. the data must be shown to be stored electronically). The publication need only be to one other person: see R v Gavin Smith [2012] EWCA Crim 398 in which an explicit internet conversation involving fantasies of incestuous, sadistic, sex acts on very young children was held to be caught by the provisions of the Act.”
I think the word ‘read’ covers it. And it looks like Gavin Smith found out the hard way.
The 1959 act – given when it was drafted – most definitely does cover written works. It was used to prosecute (as you say) things like Lady Chatterley and Last Exit to Brooklyn. However, those prosecutions failed on the ‘public interest’ defense (in section 4 of the act). This basically says that if what is written can be shown to be an integral part of the narrative in a serious work of literature, then there is a defense. In all honesty, I’m not sure that there’s much on this site that would qualify.
And of course, the CPS being disinclined to prosecute solely for written material doen’t mean it’s legal.
To add, if you are being investigated for, say, image offending, the fact that you are also into written material will definitely count against you. To again bring up the example of the gentleman whose details are listed here on the ‘Staying in touch’ page, at the time of his arrest he was found to be in the process of writing four underage sex stories (one being 52 pages long), and this was presented by the Crown as a key piece of substantive evidence for the prosecution.
“Guidelines. So, according to BlueJean, “JS is a safe place that should be free of shame and judgement.” Except for things that you don’t like. Then shame and judgement are OK. Right, got it (I think).”
I’m sorry, you’ll need to elaborate on that. I don’t believe I’ve metered out shame or judgement on anyone or anything in this thread thus far. I’ve voiced my disagreement with opposing arguements, certainly.
For someone who claims to want a civilised debate, can I suggest your posts are becoming increasingly aggressive? And before you try to stuff further words into my mouth, yes I do mean “aggressive” and not “uncomfortable”. If I’m going to “move on” from this thread, the descent into a trading of insults rather than a discussion will be the reason, not the nature of your awkward questions and assertions.
Thank you.
Hi BlueJean,
I apologize if that’s the impression you have. That wasn’t my intention. I’ve just read my post back and I honestly can’t see anything in there that I would class as “aggressive” or a personal insult. But as I say, if you interpreted anything that way, I’m sorry.
I do hope you don’t move on just yet, as I’m genuinely interested in your specific responses to the points I raised. So please do continue with those.
Amy
You say: ” To answer Jetboy’s last question first, I’d shut it down. My own view is that sexual material featuring minors such as this should not be available on the public internet.”
If this is the case then why are you visiting this site, reading its content, and engaging with the community? Are you not painting yourself with the same “pedo” brush as you paint others by doing so?
Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.
No.
I’m visiting this site because it’s a necessary evil when collating information on this kind of activity. It’s been a useful source of information. Information gleaned from here has been provided to law enforcement several times in the past.
I’m engaging with the ‘community’ as you put it, because I’m interested in understanding what makes you folks tick and how you justify your activities. Also to inject an alternate view and maybe help you reconsider what you’re doing. Not much success with that so far, admittedly, but worth a try.
Amy
Well that makes things a little clearer. Entrapment. Way to give yourself away.
Listen, until there are clearly defined laws that tell us we shouldn’t be reading and writing these stories, you might be better off focussing your efforts on dark web forums, possibly visit a few prisons to find out what makes child molesters tick. Most of us have our heads on straight, despite what you might think.
This is part of a larger debate about censorship and freedom of expression, isn’t it? If you want these stories outlawed, then presumably you want violent porn taken down too. And violent mainstream movies. And music. And video games. And literature. Basically anything that might influence the tiny minority of crackpots out there. I mean, you can’t argue against one without arguing against all the others. But that’s not the world we live in. At least not in the democratic countries where most of us live. Now, China? Iran? North Korea? That’s what lack of freedom looks like. That’s what happens when you try to control what people consume. For all the dangers and abuses that democracy is open to, I’ll take it over the alternative.
I get it – you’re not interested in the bigger picture. Just the grubby little stories. But that’s where it leads. Be very careful what you wish for.
Good luck bagging yourself a real paedophile. You might want to change your user name and email. Again.
Even from my perspective as more or less on “your side” of the debate, that’s a pretty ridiculous leap… Seeking to protect children from real harm does not lead to being North Korea. And no, this is not the nebulous “harm” that hysterical conservatives claim any violent media entails. Let’s not kid ourselves, in any community like this, there are some people who would harm children in real life if they had the opportunity, and we should always be mindful of that. I’d like to believe that JS is better than most in that regard, but even here, I have to side-eye certain comments at times.
People who are 100% convinced that no harm can be done by the, um, “underage erotica community” at large, shall we say, worry me a lot more than what Amy might be doing here. It’s not a bad thing to question ourselves from time to time.
That’s not to say that one should feel bad for enjoying the stories on here. By all means, enjoy your fantasies, as long as they’re not derived from real world harm. But let’s not put our heads in the sand either. Stories can absolutely be a slippery slope to harder content, and from there… who knows? I personally choose to believe that anyone who is eventually led to inflicting harm on a child would have done so anyway due to one trigger or another. But still, it worries me. I think it should worry any writer in this genre at least a little bit.
I didn’t mean to imply outlawing underage erotic leads directly to North Korea, obviously. My point is, it’s part of a larger debate about the corrosion of freedoms.
I’ve conceded several times that fiction can influence real life. I don’t believe these stories are the cause but they may act as the trigger. The question is, what’s the solution? You either ban the stories or you don’t. Is there a middle ground?
I honestly don’t know. I would think that first, more data is needed, but unfortunately it’s a rather difficult topic to study accurately due to the stigma surrounding it.
I have, over time, had a number of interactions with Amy.
It is a complete waste of time. She will distort whatever you say. She will ignore anything that counteracts her arguments.
She is, regardless of what she claims. beyond any sensible argument.
Please, do not waste your time debating with this fanatic.
That much is clear from her responses.
“I have never been bitten by the word dog written on a page” as a wise man said a long time ago. All other arguments are spurious.
Sigh. You’re right, we have had a number of interactions. Which was me attempting to have a discussion with you much as is taking place here. Unfortunately, despite me politely inviting you several times to put your side of the story, you never have. Despite me asking you to point out examples of where I ‘twist words’, you do not. Instead I get back emails containing yet more general invective about me nbeing a ‘sad case’ and ‘needing help’. Although ‘fanatic’ is a new one.
If you’d like to make a contribution to the discussion here though, please do. I for one would be delighted to see it, and would definitely read it with interest.
I’ll leave the other contributors to this really rather civilized debate to judge whether I’m ‘beyond any sensible argument’.
The laugh of the day there, Amy. The only side is your side and if we don’t bow to that side you attack and even try to get personal with anything you dig up on the person and anyone else that might be that person.
You remind me of the feminist who says she doesn’t want to argue and responds to “You’re a woman” with “NO IM NOT… Uh oh yeah I am” while the man walks away having won the argument
Ah yes, a dash of misogyny, just what this conversation needed…
We did try answering you in the beginning. But very quickly realised the futility.
You are clever and articulate, but you have an agenda and no amount of argument sways you from your stated position.
From my experience, you distort facts to suit yourself. We present the truth and still you try and twist it to suit yourself.
You wonder why we get exasperated and say ‘enough’. There are plenty like you in left wing politics. Just like you, we learn it’s a waste of time debating anything.
I really don’t want to get sidetracked, but here’s a quick response to both Fur and Kinkychic.
Look through this page. See what’s happening? I post my views, somebody else posts theirs, I respond, and so it goes. That’s called a civilized debate, or intellectual discourse, or whatever. As Jetboy correctly points out, neither side is very likely to change the other’s mind, but that doesn’t mean we can’t have a conversation.
Kinkychic, I have repeatedly requested you to supply actual responses to points I make, but you never do. When you say it’s a waste of time debating, forgive me, but I’m not sure you’re grasping what a ‘debate’ is. It doesn’t mean that one side has to cave in, throw their hands up, and admit they’re wrong. I’m not asking you to ‘bow to my side’. I’m just asking you to present your side. But you refuse to. And again, I’ll ask you to point to just one actual example in this thread where I have distorted facts.
If you want to make a substantive contribution on here, then great. But please don’t just sit on the sidelines and lob in snide personal comments.
Amy
Amy, I’ve gotten several emails from friends of the site about this thread, asking why I’m bothering to engage with you on the issues you raise. My reply to them has been that I’m not trying to change your mind (I’m certain that I won’t), that my intention is to articulate my own thoughts regarding Juicy Secrets, and allow others to do the same in a courteous exchange of views.
As you point out, the dialogue has been mostly civil thus far, considering the strong feelings from both sides… but frankly, you have to expect that some of our regulars are going to have hard feelings about what you’re doing here, because they think you’re hellbent on shutting this site down.
Despite the fact that we don’t agree, I’ve treated you with respect (thanks for recognizing that), but I’d be considerably less welcoming if I knew for certain that you were working toward killing Juicy Secrets, or attempting to unsettle us with veiled threats.
Truth be told, I’ve got no idea what your intentions are, nor does anyone but you, really… and that can’t help but result in frayed feelings.
Jetboy, firstly to say that I wholeheartedly agree with your first paragraph. I very much doubt that I’ll change your mind, or you mine. What I think your correspondents (and also perhaps Fur and Kinkychic) aren’t grasping is that this isn’t an “I win you lose” scenario. It’s a rare opportunity to converse, as you say, which again I am grateful to you for allowing and facilitating.
I’ve never made any secret of my view (in fact I’ve already posted it in a response here) that sites like JS should not be available on the open internet and I would, frankly, shed no tears if it disappeared (or shuffled off to the Dark Web netherworld).
But certainly one of my intentions is to inject some alternative views into the bubble that the ‘community’ inhabits and maybe challenge some assumptions that seem to underpin it. As No One suggests, a little self-awareness is no bad thing.
An example: Joe Dornish (who seems like a very nice guy) wrote a polite post questioning what I said about the legal status of this material in the UK. He seemed to be under the impression that he could not be prosecuted for publishing stories on here. I really do think (from my understanding of the law) that’s false and was able to give Joe a few pointers as to the realities. He can go and research things a little more if he likes, and I’d certainly encourage him to do so. But if I’m right, Joe could indeed be prosecuted and if convicted would be looking at a five-year prison term and/or an unlimited fine. Maybe Joe can now factor that in when considering his online activities in future. He may conclude that the catastrophe that he could potentially bring down on himself and his family outweighs the fun he gets from participating here. Maybe, maybe not. But he can make that decision now that he’s seen outside the bubble, as it were.
I hope this answers your question, at least in part?
Your examples of prosecutions for literature are thus:
A child porn case where underage fiction was used as EVIDENCE, not the CAUSE of the prosecution.
An online conversation, which is NOT a fictional story.
Two historical cases that were thrown out of court.
Not a very compelling argument for the illegality of such stories or the appetite to prosecute them, I have to say.
Did you know it’s illegal to handle a salmon suspiciously in the UK? (I kid you not). There’s also a law against being drunk in a pub (again, no joke).
As for your doubt that the subject matter in these stories is not integral to the narrative – of course it is. That’s the whole premise of the fiction on this site. If underage sex wasn’t integral to the material on JS, you wouldn’t be here on your misguided crusade, would you? And if your assertion that nothing here could be considered “serious literature”, I can only assume you’ve spent many, many hours reading through the material here, before you were able to come to that conclusion. Perhaps it’s not your place to make that judgement, in any case.
The world has nothing to fear from the written word, Amy, it really doesn’t. I know it’s difficult for you to step outside your “paedophile hysteria” bubble long enough to grasp that. People commit crimes, not stories.
And if you post back to tell me “Salmon doesn’t abuse children” you’re absolutely going to make my day.
A child porn case where underage fiction was used as evidence: if it wasn’t illegal (which it was), it wouldn’t be presented as evidence.
Online conversation. Oh man, if a lawyer can argue successfully that an online chat is caught by the provisions of the dear old 1959 Obscene Publications Act, then prosecuting submissions to this site would be an absolute walk in the park.
The two historical cases were thrown out of court because of the parts of the law that were designed specifically to address one of Joe’s concerns: that serious works of literature could be unreasonably targeted.
I’m going to be harsh here, so I apologize in advance. The stories on here have no narrative. Literally the sole point of them is the underage sex. That’s not the case with the serious works of literature that survived prosecution specifically because of the parts of the OPA that were designed to protect them. Those prosecutions were, indeed, the result of early 1960s hysteria and should never have taken place.
The fact remains: irrespective of the appetite to prosecute, someone in the UK publishing stories to this site is committing a criminal offense subject to a sentence of five years in prison and/or an unlimited fine. If your reading of the law is different, then great, I’d be happy to be proved wrong, so let’s hear it.
“A child porn case where underage fiction was used as evidence: if it wasn’t illegal (which it was), it wouldn’t be presented as evidence.”
So only “illegal” documents count as evidence in a court case? Completely incorrect and nonsensical to boot.
“Online conversation. Oh man, if a lawyer can argue successfully that an online chat is caught by the provisions of the dear old 1959 Obscene Publications Act, then prosecuting submissions to this site would be an absolute walk in the park.”
Really? So where ARE the prosecutions? If they’re an absolute walk in the park why are we not seeing them? Odd that.
“The two historical cases were thrown out of court because of the parts of the law that were designed specifically to address one of Joe’s concerns: that serious works of literature could be unreasonably targeted.”
Presumably you have no issues with Vladimir Nabokov’s “Lolita” then. A novel about a middle aged man’s sexual relationship with a twelve year old girl, if you’re not familiar. Is it the “literature” you’re arguing against or the “underage content”? You can’t have it both ways, I’m afraid.
Let me explain what “Narrative” means, Amy:
Having the form of a story or representing a story. Of or relating to the process of telling a story.
Regardless of your disapproval of the content, the stories here are absolutely narrative by their very definition. To argue otherwise is idiocy.
And lastly, forgive me for assuming you could join the dots together, so let me clarify the salmon comment – It’s a law. But one that isn’t enforced. Just like the prosecution of literature. Why is no one willing to prosecute the written word? As I’ve said many times in this debate, it sets a dangerous precedent. Now, you’ve never engaged with that arguement. Not once. I believe you’re so consumed by your own convictions, you’re unable to see the bigger picture. Thankfully, for the time being at least, the powers that be aren’t willing to touch these stories with a barge pole.
I’ve spent far too much of my energies on this thread, so I’m going to make this one my last. Thanks to all who contributed. It was quite the eye opener.
To add, handling a salmon suspiciously (great example, although this is getting a little surreal), is unlikely to lead to:
Losing your job
Divorce
Never seeing your kids again
Complete ostracization from your local community
Suicide
… all of which are, sadly, very common consequences of a child pornography prosecution.
You did it…
You actually fucking did it…
God bless you, Amy 😊
Glad to oblige, but it’s a little sad that you didn’t engage with the serious point I was making. I’m not sure what you exactly meant by ‘salmon doesn’t abuse children’, to be honest.
One of the saddest things I’ve come across during my time looking into this stuff is the guideline sheet that’s handed out by one of the UK police forces to the spouses of people arrested for online CP offenses. In amongst the instruction not to attempt contact with their partner, and the advice on obtaining counselling for the children, one stark, three-word line stands out: “Prepare for suicide”.
Mary Whitehouse is reincarnated and browsing the ‘Web!!
Oooh, dating yourself there a little 🙂
Mary Whitehouse objected to very minor profanity in TV sitcoms. I’m objecting to graphic (albeit fictional) depictions of child abuse.
I don’t think the comparison is accurate.
Hi Bluejean,
Sorry to see you go. I guess I’ll just make a response to your last post, then.
‘Only illegal documents’. You are quite right of course, I worded that very badly. Interestingly, there was a case not long ago of a gentleman in (IIRC) Northern Ireland who was prosecuted because his hard drive contained thousands upon thousands of ostensibly entirely innocent pictures of schoolgirls. No nudity, no sexual posing, no ‘models’. Just pictures of girls fully clothed in their school uniforms. The jury at his trial, however, concluded that there was no plausible explanation for his possession of this collection other than sexual gratification. You see, you don’t get to decide what’s legal or illegal; the jury at your trial does.
‘Where are the prosecutions’. So this avenue of discussion stemmed from one of your posts where you said you were “pretty sure that child erotica in pure text form is legal in the UK”. Well, I’m pretty sure it isn’t, and provided evidence to back that up. But now apparently it’s all about prosecutions? Careful there Bluejean, you’ll have Kinkychic accusing you of “twisting words” and “distorting facts”. I guess you missed the bit in my post where I said “irrespective of the appetite to prosecute”. So your advice to Joe Dornish et al would presumably be, “yeah, go ahead, absolutely no way you’ll get into trouble for this”?
Let’s talk about narrative. The example that Jetboy brought up maybe, the rape scene in ‘Catch 22″. Catch 22 has an overall narrative arc that is all about how war dehumanizes and desensitizes otherwise rational human beings. The rape scene is a graphic way of supporting and pushing forward that narrative. Or do you think that Heller wrote that entire novel just so he could include that rape scene? Tell, me, what is the overall narrative arc of “The Corruption of Amy”? By the third paragraph, we’re straight into the underage sex. You really think this stuff is on a par with Nabokov?
Excuse me, but I have several times engaged with the topic of prosecution of literature. The relevant laws, as I have pointed out, have protections built in to address exactly this. So the argument that continually arises: “this is a slippery slope, ban JS and we’ll be in North Kores before you know it” isn’t valid.
Thanks for listening. If you do decide to re-engage (and I hope you do), could I just quote another of your posts back to you? The one where you said to me “can I suggest your posts are becoming increasingly aggressive?” I’d suggest in return that your last couple of posts have exceeded any level of aggression I may have shown by a fair margin. And Jetboy and I were just high-fiving each other about the civilised tone on here, too. Maybe you could dial it back a little? Dispensing with the f-bombs would be a good start.
Amy
Okay, okay. I wanted a lively, open discussion, and certainly did get that! Nonetheless, I feel that this thread is on the verge of hijacking the site… and honestly, it’s beginning to repeat itself. The points have been effectively made on both sides, so I’m making the executive decision to close comments for this story.
Thanks to all participants, regardless of their take on the matter. Now let’s all shake hands…